From mike@miketaylor.org.uk Wed Jun 21 17:36:28 2006 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1648" "Wednesday" "21" "June" "2006" "17:36:28" "+0100" "Mike Taylor" "mike@miketaylor.org.uk" nil "32" "IRSpy Progress" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: X-Original-To: mike Delivered-To: mike@miketaylor.org.uk Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 74B39ABBDE; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:36:28 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <20060621163628.74B39ABBDE@localhost.localdomain> From: mike@miketaylor.org.uk (Mike Taylor) To: perhans@indexdata.dk,quinn@indexdata.dk Subject: IRSpy Progress Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:36:28 +0100 (BST) Hi Per, Seb. I'm pleased to announce some good progress now on IRSpy, although tomorrow's one-day conference and next week's three-dayer come at an irritating time just the framework is pretty much in place. If you want to play with it, feel free (cvs co irspy) or you could leave it a week or two until I have it purring properly. The framework is there now to run sets of tests, each of which is coded as a plugin Perl module with a straightforward API. So far, though I've only made two -- "Ping" which just checks the connection, and "Search::Title" which checks whether a simple @attr 1=4 title works. (Actually, three tests: there's also "Main", which does nothing but invoke the other two.) Each test plugin class is defined as a subclass of a base "Test" class. Aside from adding many more tests, the main thing that needs to be done is giving the test a way to permanently register their results, which they'll do by updating an IRSpy::Record structure which is initially built from the stored ZeeRex record and is, when the test are complete, serialised back to ZeeRex and written back to the controlling database. That part is not yet done, depending as it does on defining the necessary ZeeRex extensions. With a trailing wind, I'll get it done on Friday. I'm sorry it's taken so long to get to this point. Hopefully from here on everything will speed up dramatically. _/|_ ___________________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor http://www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out" -- attributed to Carl Sagan. From mike Wed Apr 18 09:17:34 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil t nil nil] ["2909" "Wednesday" "18" "April" "2007" "10:19:29" "+0300" "Juha Hakala" "juha.hakala@helsinki.fi" "<4625C681.10007@helsinki.fi>" "68" "IRSpy testing in Helsinki" "^X-Spam-Status:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-path: Envelope-to: mike@indexdata.com Delivery-date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:09:57 +0200 Received: from bagel.indexdata.dk [213.150.43.11] by localhost.localdomain with POP3 (fetchmail-6.3.2) for (single-drop); Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:17:34 +0100 (BST) Received: from sender-02.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.137]) by bagel.indexdata.dk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1He5Ef-00062G-4z; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:09:57 +0200 Received: from orm6.lib.helsinki.fi (orm6.lib.helsinki.fi [128.214.91.244]) by sender-02.it.helsinki.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3I7J0Kh002108 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:19:00 +0300 Received: from [128.214.91.248] (oktas-2.lib.helsinki.fi [128.214.91.248]) (authenticated bits=0) by orm6.lib.helsinki.fi (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l3I7IxNC000394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:18:59 +0300 Message-ID: <4625C681.10007@helsinki.fi> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 128.214.205.137 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: mike@indexdata.com, quinn@indexdata.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: juha.hakala@helsinki.fi X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on bagel.indexdata.dk X-Spam-Level: X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on bagel.indexdata.dk) X-UIDL: =U8"!:1(!!Y23"!U6i!! X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.3 From: Juha Hakala To: Mike Taylor CC: Ere Maijala , Katri Kananen , Kristiina Hormia , Ari Rouvari , "Adam Horvath (adam@oszk.hu)" , Esa Kurki , Sebastian Hammer Subject: IRSpy testing in Helsinki Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:19:29 +0300 Hello Mike, After some internal discussions we have decided to proceed with the IRSpy testing in the following manner: 1. Initial testing, to be carried out by Ms. Katri Kananen, will concentrate on end user point of view. Katri is very experienced copy cataloger who is familiar with both Z39.50 and BookWhere. Comparing the target data in BookWhere (which has been manually produced) and in IRSpy will provide some views on how reliable automatically generated data is. Since IRSpy contains more targets than BookWhere (2600 to about 2000) Katri will also be able to add new targets to BookWhere and see how they "work". 2. After Katri has finished her part of the work in late May / early June we'll proceed to technical testing, to be carried out by Ere Maijala whose background is in programming. Since Ere's schedule is tight (his main responsibility is our MetaLib/SFX portal) I am not sure how much time he'll be able to spend on testing, but we'll see what happens. Implementation of the new MetaLib version keeps Ere and his colleagues busy for the time being. But we wish to complete testing before summer vacations; I hope this is OK for ID. It is our belief that IRSpy will help us in two areas, BookWhere-based copy cataloguing and MetaLib portal maintenance. The testers represent these two areas, and the outcome of the test will already provide some insights of how useful the tool will be, for the national library and for the (Finnish) library network in general. If Adam and his colleagues are able to test this version of the application (like they have tested earlier releases), we would like to receive a report of the results too, in order to avoid re-inventing the same wheels. I have taken a short look at IRSpy. One feature I missed was geographic location (country) of the server, which in many cases could be easily derived from the host name. Browsing an alphabetical list for Finnish servers was rather frustrating, and a copy cataloguer would prefer a country-based representation of servers. Moreover, there are quite a lot of servers with 0 % reliability, eventually some kind of weeding process should be implemented for the servers which obviously are no longer functional at all or have moved to some other place. Presentation of the supported attributes is as compact as it gets; lay users might prefer a more verbose option should one be available. But in spite of these critical comments, I am quite happy with what I've seen. The number of target systems is already quite impressive and is likely to grow when IRSpy goes live. The system works fast enough, and I like the looks of it. Best regards, Juha -- -- Juha Hakala Director, Information Technology The National Library of Finland P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678 From mike@miketaylor.org.uk Wed Apr 18 12:42:50 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4695" "Wednesday" "18" "April" "2007" "12:42:50" "+0100" "Mike Taylor" "mike@indexdata.com" nil "110" "IRSpy testing in Helsinki" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: X-Original-To: mike Delivered-To: mike@miketaylor.org.uk Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C1D79AC0F7; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:42:50 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17958.1082.518813.567339@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <4625C681.10007@helsinki.fi> References: <4625C681.10007@helsinki.fi> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 From: Mike Taylor To: Juha Hakala Cc: Ere Maijala , Katri Kananen , Kristiina Hormia , Ari Rouvari , "Adam Horvath (adam@oszk.hu)" , Esa Kurki , Sebastian Hammer , perhans@indexdata.dk Subject: IRSpy testing in Helsinki Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:42:50 +0100 Juha Hakala writes: > Hello Mike, > > After some internal discussions we have decided to proceed with the > IRSpy testing in the following manner: > > 1. Initial testing, to be carried out by Ms. Katri Kananen, will > concentrate on end user point of view. Katri is very experienced > copy cataloger who is familiar with both Z39.50 and > BookWhere. Comparing the target data in BookWhere (which has been > manually produced) and in IRSpy will provide some views on how > reliable automatically generated data is. Since IRSpy contains > more targets than BookWhere (2600 to about 2000) Katri will also be > able to add new targets to BookWhere and see how they "work". OK, sounds good. > 2. After Katri has finished her part of the work in late May / > early June we'll proceed to technical testing, to be carried out by > Ere Maijala whose background is in programming. This seems an awfully long way into the future. > Since Ere's schedule is tight (his main responsibility is our > MetaLib/SFX portal) I am not sure how much time he'll be able to > spend on testing, but we'll see what happens. Implementation of the > new MetaLib version keeps Ere and his colleagues busy for the time > being. But we wish to complete testing before summer vacations; I > hope this is OK for ID. I'll leave Per or Seb to comment on that. > It is our belief that IRSpy will help us in two areas, > BookWhere-based copy cataloguing and MetaLib portal > maintenance. The testers represent these two areas, and the outcome > of the test will already provide some insights of how useful the > tool will be, for the national library and for the (Finnish) > library network in general. > > If Adam and his colleagues are able to test this version of the > application (like they have tested earlier releases), we would like > to receive a report of the results too, in order to avoid > re-inventing the same wheels. Certainly. May we once more invite you to register all bugs, change requests, etc. in the Bugzilla area? That way everyone can see what everyone else has found and we can be sure that nothing gets forgotten. http://bugzilla.indexdata.dk/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=IR-Spy&content= > I have taken a short look at IRSpy. One feature I missed was > geographic location (country) of the server, which in many cases > could be easily derived from the host name. The problem is that "in many cases" is not really good enough. You'll have seen that there is indeed a Country field in the records, but we feel that it is better to edit these by hand than to have a computer make guesses. However -- > Browsing an alphabetical list for Finnish servers was rather > frustrating, and a copy cataloguer would prefer a country-based > representation of servers. Well, that's what searching is for! :-) If you want to narrow by domain-name, try this. Go to: http://irspy.indexdata.com/find.html In the "Host" field, enter *.fi Set the "Sort by" dropdown to Title And press the Search button. At the moment, there seems to be only one matching entry (which makes the sorting criterion a bit irrelevant :-) This was a surprise to me, but does seem to be correct. > Moreover, there are quite a lot of servers with 0 % reliability, > eventually some kind of weeding process should be implemented for > the servers which obviously are no longer functional at all or have > moved to some other place. Yes. Someone will have to come up with heuristics -- I suppose something simple such as "no successful connections in six months" would be about right. > Presentation of the supported attributes is as compact as it gets; > lay users might prefer a more verbose option should one be > available. You mean this? Bib-1 Use attributes 36 access points: 1-9, 12-13, 16-19, 21, 25, 28, 33-44, 47, 1003, 1007, 1016, 1035-1036 You're thinking that users might prefer to see "33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44" rather than "33-44"? I have to say that does not seem likely to me. > But in spite of these critical comments, I am quite happy with what > I've seen. The number of target systems is already quite impressive > and is likely to grow when IRSpy goes live. The system works fast > enough, and I like the looks of it. Thanks, that's good to hear! _/|_ ___________________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor http://www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "When a man is tired of Ankh Morpork, he is tired of ankle-deep slurry" -- Terry Pratchett, "Mort" From mike Wed Apr 18 14:25:27 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil t t nil nil nil nil] ["5865" "Wednesday" "18" "April" "2007" "16:25:09" "+0300" "Juha Hakala" "juha.hakala@helsinki.fi" "<46261C35.6040402@helsinki.fi>" "137" "Re: IRSpy testing in Helsinki" "^X-Spam-Status:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-path: Envelope-to: mike@indexdata.com Delivery-date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:24:50 +0200 Received: from bagel.indexdata.dk [213.150.43.11] by localhost.localdomain with POP3 (fetchmail-6.3.2) for (single-drop); Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:25:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from sender-02.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.137]) by bagel.indexdata.dk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HeA9F-0002xX-WF; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:24:50 +0200 Received: from orm6.lib.helsinki.fi (orm6.lib.helsinki.fi [128.214.91.244]) by sender-02.it.helsinki.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3IDOacL003964 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:24:36 +0300 Received: from [128.214.91.248] (oktas-2.lib.helsinki.fi [128.214.91.248]) (authenticated bits=0) by orm6.lib.helsinki.fi (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l3IDOZkA005626 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:24:36 +0300 Message-ID: <46261C35.6040402@helsinki.fi> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46261259.5020700@indexdata.dk> In-Reply-To: <46261259.5020700@indexdata.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by sender-02.it.helsinki.fi id l3IDOacL003964 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 128.214.205.137 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: mike@indexdata.com, quinn@indexdata.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: juha.hakala@helsinki.fi X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on bagel.indexdata.dk X-Spam-Level: X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on bagel.indexdata.dk) X-UIDL: a9Z!!L?D"!:?R"!V%7"! X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.3 From: Juha Hakala To: "Per M. Hansen" CC: Mike Taylor , Sebastian Hammer , Kristiina Hormia , Dorrit Gustafsson Subject: Re: IRSpy testing in Helsinki Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:25:09 +0300 Dear Per, We did not want to spend much time on testing the application until it=20 was declared to be ready by Index Data. Any testing done on earlier=20 versions must be repeated with the final release, and the time spent on=20 testing would increase accordingly. We assumed that testing would take place late 2006, and we had a=20 seasoned programmer who would have been able to take care of the task.=20 He left us in the end of December as planned, so at the moment we do not=20 have a technical expert available for testing on short notice. Please=20 keep in mind that we could not prepare ourselves properly for testing in=20 2007 also because we did not know exactly when ID will be able to=20 complete the IRSpy development. Once Mike's note about IRSpy being=20 available for testing arrived, following discussions with other=20 directors and experts within the library, I came up with the plan sent=20 to Mike Taylor earlier today. Paying the entire invoice before the testing is completed is not what we=20 normally do, even with good partners such as ID. Your proposal will be=20 discussed in the library board, but I must admit that my gut feeling is=20 that the answer will be negative. From our point of view it is not=20 entirely our fault that we can not complete the testing fast. I do not=20 remember if our contract says anything about how fast we are assumed to=20 carry out the testing; if it does, then we have to reconsider the=20 testing proposal I have drafted. I'm sorry for being a bit negative this time. But we have bought a lot=20 of software from various vendors, and there are some principles we=20 always stick to. What you propose would be against some of them. Best regards, Juha Hakala Per M. Hansen wrote: > Dear Juha, > > Thank you for your mail. > > This project has been in progress for quite some time now, and this is=20 > unfortunately entirely our fault and we are very sorry about that. The=20 > long development time has however also given you a very long time to=20 > conduct you testing of the software. On this basis I don't understand=20 > why it has to take so long time before you can perform the final=20 > testing of the system. I would therefor like to be able to invoice you=20 > now, with the clause that we of course will fix any problem in the=20 > software that you may find, that is included in the requirements.=20 > Would that work for you? > > Regards, > > Per M=F8rkegaard Hansen, COO > Index Data >> Hello Mike, >> >> After some internal discussions we have decided to proceed with the=20 >> IRSpy testing in the following manner: >> >> 1. Initial testing, to be carried out by Ms. Katri Kananen, will=20 >> concentrate on end user point of view. Katri is very experienced copy=20 >> cataloger who is familiar with both Z39.50 and BookWhere. Comparing=20 >> the target data in BookWhere (which has been manually produced) and=20 >> in IRSpy will provide some views on how reliable automatically=20 >> generated data is. Since IRSpy contains more targets than BookWhere=20 >> (2600 to about 2000) Katri will also be able to add new targets to=20 >> BookWhere and see how they "work". >> >> 2. After Katri has finished her part of the work in late May / early=20 >> June we'll proceed to technical testing, to be carried out by Ere=20 >> Maijala whose background is in programming. Since Ere's schedule is=20 >> tight (his main responsibility is our MetaLib/SFX portal) I am not=20 >> sure how much time he'll be able to spend on testing, but we'll see=20 >> what happens. Implementation of the new MetaLib version keeps Ere and=20 >> his colleagues busy for the time being. But we wish to complete=20 >> testing before summer vacations; I hope this is OK for ID. >> >> It is our belief that IRSpy will help us in two areas,=20 >> BookWhere-based copy cataloguing and MetaLib portal maintenance. The=20 >> testers represent these two areas, and the outcome of the test will=20 >> already provide some insights of how useful the tool will be, for the=20 >> national library and for the (Finnish) library network in general. >> >> If Adam and his colleagues are able to test this version of the=20 >> application (like they have tested earlier releases), we would like=20 >> to receive a report of the results too, in order to avoid=20 >> re-inventing the same wheels. >> >> I have taken a short look at IRSpy. One feature I missed was=20 >> geographic location (country) of the server, which in many cases=20 >> could be easily derived from the host name. Browsing an alphabetical=20 >> list for Finnish servers was rather frustrating, and a copy=20 >> cataloguer would prefer a country-based representation of servers.=20 >> Moreover, there are quite a lot of servers with 0 % reliability,=20 >> eventually some kind of weeding process should be implemented for=20 >> the servers which obviously are no longer functional at all or have=20 >> moved to some other place. Presentation of the supported attributes=20 >> is as compact as it gets; lay users might prefer a more verbose=20 >> option should one be available. >> >> But in spite of these critical comments, I am quite happy with what=20 >> I've seen. The number of target systems is already quite impressive=20 >> and is likely to grow when IRSpy goes live. The system works fast=20 >> enough, and I like the looks of it. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Juha >> >> --=20 >> >> --=20 >> >> Juha Hakala >> Director, Information Technology >> >> The National Library of Finland P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room=20 >> 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University >> Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678 =20 > --=20 -- Juha Hakala Director, Information Technology The National Library of Finland=20 P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678 =20 From mike Wed Apr 18 14:25:25 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3501" "Wednesday" "18" "April" "2007" "15:21:01" "+0300" "Juha Hakala" "juha.hakala@helsinki.fi" nil "92" "Re: IRSpy testing in Helsinki" "^X-Spam-Status:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-path: Envelope-to: mike@indexdata.com Delivery-date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:12:04 +0200 Received: from bagel.indexdata.dk [213.150.43.11] by localhost.localdomain with POP3 (fetchmail-6.3.2) for (single-drop); Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:25:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from sender-01.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.139]) by bagel.indexdata.dk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1He9x3-0002La-Si; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:12:04 +0200 Received: from orm6.lib.helsinki.fi (orm6.lib.helsinki.fi [128.214.91.244]) by sender-01.it.helsinki.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3ICKTrq022473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:20:30 +0300 Received: from [128.214.91.248] (oktas-2.lib.helsinki.fi [128.214.91.248]) (authenticated bits=0) by orm6.lib.helsinki.fi (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l3ICKT8J031907 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:20:29 +0300 Message-ID: <46260D2D.3010200@helsinki.fi> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4625C681.10007@helsinki.fi> <17958.1082.518813.567339@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <17958.1082.518813.567339@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 128.214.205.139 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: mike@indexdata.com, quinn@indexdata.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: juha.hakala@helsinki.fi X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on bagel.indexdata.dk X-Spam-Level: X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on bagel.indexdata.dk) X-UIDL: pfK!!M7c"!>f~"!"8#"! X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100,RAZOR2_CHECK autolearn=no version=3.0.3 From: Juha Hakala To: Mike Taylor CC: Ere Maijala , Katri Kananen , Kristiina Hormia , Ari Rouvari , "Adam Horvath (adam@oszk.hu)" , Esa Kurki , Sebastian Hammer , perhans@indexdata.dk Subject: Re: IRSpy testing in Helsinki Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:21:01 +0300 Hello Mike, See comments below. There are not many of them. As regards the timing of the test over here: I am sorry that we can not start the technical testing any faster. Late last year - when IRSpy was supposed to be available for testing - we did have a qualified person, but he is no longer with us. Mike Taylor wrote: > > If you want to narrow by domain-name, try this. Go to: > http://irspy.indexdata.com/find.html > In the "Host" field, enter > *.fi > Set the "Sort by" dropdown to > Title > And press the Search button. > > At the moment, there seems to be only one matching entry (which makes > the sorting criterion a bit irrelevant :-) This was a surprise to me, > but does seem to be correct. > I was not able to find a single Finnish server via browsing; my patience ran out first. Many Finnish sites that are definitely free (like most OPACs in university libraries) are missing from the IRSpy server list, although it is probably the most complete one in existence. This shows only that there are a lot more Z & SRU servers out there than we know, and the fact that the libraries have not been able to share this information efficiently between themselves keeps many useful services hidden from users such as copy cataloguers or patrons with specific regional interests. Patrons with specific topical interests would of course need collection descriptions, but that is a different story. > > Presentation of the supported attributes is as compact as it gets; > > lay users might prefer a more verbose option should one be > > available. > > You mean this? > > Bib-1 Use attributes 36 access points: 1-9, 12-13, 16-19, > 21, 25, 28, 33-44, 47, 1003, 1007, > 1016, 1035-1036 > > You're thinking that users might prefer to see "33, 34, 35, 36, 37, > 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44" rather than "33-44"? I have to say that > does not seem likely to me. > That would not seem likely to me either :-). Instead of verbose I should have said human readable (sorry, I am not a native English speaker and sometimes pick a wrong term or make a mess of the grammar). Especially if you don't have Z39.50 readily at hand it may be a bit difficult to find out what f.ex. Use attribute 7 means. Most human users (especially those who are not system analysts but e.g. cataloguers) might well prefer a display stating "ISBN" instead of "7", especially if they only want to see if ISBN searching is possible. Of course it is possible to check from Bib-1 the meaning of the codes, and eventually one memorizes quite a few of them, but why should we make it necessary to the users to take that extra step? Best regards, Juha > > But in spite of these critical comments, I am quite happy with what > > I've seen. The number of target systems is already quite impressive > > and is likely to grow when IRSpy goes live. The system works fast > > enough, and I like the looks of it. > > Thanks, that's good to hear! > > _/|_ ___________________________________________________________________ > /o ) \/ Mike Taylor http://www.miketaylor.org.uk > )_v__/\ "When a man is tired of Ankh Morpork, he is tired of ankle-deep > slurry" -- Terry Pratchett, "Mort" > > -- -- Juha Hakala Director, Information Technology The National Library of Finland P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678 From mike@miketaylor.org.uk Wed Apr 18 15:12:21 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3482" "Wednesday" "18" "April" "2007" "15:12:20" "+0100" "Mike Taylor" "mike@indexdata.com" nil "84" "Re: IRSpy testing in Helsinki" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: X-Original-To: mike Delivered-To: mike@miketaylor.org.uk Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1B25DAC0F7; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:12:21 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17958.10052.988213.697561@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <46260D2D.3010200@helsinki.fi> References: <4625C681.10007@helsinki.fi> <17958.1082.518813.567339@localhost.localdomain> <46260D2D.3010200@helsinki.fi> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 From: Mike Taylor To: Juha Hakala Cc: Ere Maijala , Katri Kananen , Kristiina Hormia , Ari Rouvari , "Adam Horvath (adam@oszk.hu)" , Esa Kurki , Sebastian Hammer , perhans@indexdata.dk Subject: Re: IRSpy testing in Helsinki Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:12:20 +0100 Juha Hakala writes: > As regards the timing of the test over here: I am sorry that we can > not start the technical testing any faster. Late last year - when > IRSpy was supposed to be available for testing - we did have a > qualified person, but he is no longer with us. I do take your point. > > If you want to narrow by domain-name, try this. Go to: > > http://irspy.indexdata.com/find.html > > In the "Host" field, enter > > *.fi > > Set the "Sort by" dropdown to > > Title > > And press the Search button. > > > > At the moment, there seems to be only one matching entry (which > > makes the sorting criterion a bit irrelevant :-) This was a > > surprise to me, but does seem to be correct. > > I was not able to find a single Finnish server via browsing; my > patience ran out first. Probably because there is only the one! But of course you are very welcome to add more. > Many Finnish sites that are definitely free (like most OPACs in > university libraries) are missing from the IRSpy server list, > although it is probably the most complete one in existence. This > shows only that there are a lot more Z & SRU servers out there than > we know, and the fact that the libraries have not been able to > share this information efficiently between themselves keeps many > useful services hidden from users such as copy cataloguers or > patrons with specific regional interests. All true. Please help to fix this problem! :-) > > > Presentation of the supported attributes is as compact as it gets; > > > lay users might prefer a more verbose option should one be > > > available. > > > > You mean this? > > > > Bib-1 Use attributes 36 access points: 1-9, 12-13, 16-19, > > 21, 25, 28, 33-44, 47, 1003, 1007, > > 1016, 1035-1036 > > > > You're thinking that users might prefer to see "33, 34, 35, 36, 37, > > 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44" rather than "33-44"? I have to say that > > does not seem likely to me. > > That would not seem likely to me either :-). :-) > Instead of verbose I should have said human readable (sorry, I am > not a native English speaker and sometimes pick a wrong term or > make a mess of the grammar). You _are_ joking here, right? Like most Scandivians, your written English is _far_ better than that of most native Brits. > Especially if you don't have Z39.50 readily at hand it may be a bit > difficult to find out what f.ex. Use attribute 7 means. Most human > users (especially those who are not system analysts but e.g. > cataloguers) might well prefer a display stating "ISBN" instead of > "7", especially if they only want to see if ISBN searching is > possible. Of course it is possible to check from Bib-1 the meaning > of the codes, and eventually one memorizes quite a few of them, but > why should we make it necessary to the users to take that extra > step? Gotcha. I agree that it would be a nice enhancement to be able to see the codes interpreted. Would you please add this feature request using Bugzilla? Not only will that make sure it gets done, but it will also reassure us at ID that you are comfortable using the system. Thanks. _/|_ ___________________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor http://www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "Don't ask what you can do for your country. Ask what you can do for your mother" -- Joe Lieberman. From mike Wed Apr 25 18:36:49 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil t nil] ["2516" "Wednesday" "25" "April" "2007" "19:09:55" "+0200" "HORVATH Adam" "adam@oszk.hu" nil "72" "Re: IRSpy Acceptance Testing" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-path: Envelope-to: mike@indexdata.com Delivery-date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:33:37 +0200 Received: from bagel.indexdata.dk [213.150.43.11] by localhost.localdomain with POP3 (fetchmail-6.3.2) for (single-drop); Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:36:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail.oszk.hu ([193.6.201.194]) by bagel.indexdata.dk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HglN1-0003ji-Ms for mike@indexdata.com; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:33:37 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.oszk.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D964C206E15; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:09:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.oszk.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.oszk.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09408-04; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:09:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.42.122] (unknown [192.168.42.122]) by mail.oszk.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5924C206DFA; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:09:54 +0200 (CEST) Organization: OSZK - National Szechenyi Library MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <462FA783.17971.225752EB@adam.oszk.hu> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20070330232512.C62C4ABC71@localhost.localdomain> References: <20070330232512.C62C4ABC71@localhost.localdomain> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at oszk.hu X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 193.6.201.194 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: mike@indexdata.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: adam@oszk.hu X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bagel.indexdata.dk); Message bigger than SAmaxbody (256000) X-UIDL: +Tm"!WS!#!!`@"!Md@"! X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: "HORVATH Adam" To: Mike Taylor Cc: perhans@indexdata.dk, juha.hakala@helsinki.fi Subject: Re: IRSpy Acceptance Testing Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:09:55 +0200 Kjaere Mike, I added a couple of bug reports, comments, questions to bugzilla. I also amended a previous bug report of someone else. I wanted to attach a screenshot to one of the report (1093) but I did not find an attach button, so I'm attaching that to this letter. I think we have already finished the test. I'm looking forward to your answers. Med vennlig hilsen Adam > Hi, Juha and Adam, > > We would like to invite you now to play with the IRSpy installation at > http://irspy.indexdata.com/ > with a view to acceptance-testing. As you will quickly see, all the > functionality is now there. To perform some of the administrative > functions, you will need to log in -- use username "admin", password > "admin". (We'll want to change that at some point!) > > We have a register of known issues at: > http://bugzilla.indexdata.dk/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=IR-Spy&content= > Please don't be put off by the length: these are mostly either > suggestions for enhancement or straighforward tweaks. > > If you run into additional problems, please register them in Bugzilla. > > Thanks for your patience as we've put this together. > > _/|_ ___________________________________________________________________ > /o ) \/ Mike Taylor http://www.miketaylor.org.uk > )_v__/\ "Nobody really knows what the Bourne shell's grammar is" -- > Tom Duff, "Rc: A Shell for Plan 9" > ================================================ Adam HORVATH Director of Informatics ------------------------------------------------ NATIONAL SZECHENYI LIBRARY Information Technology Department Budapest, Budavari Palota F epulet, H-1827 Tel.: +36-1-224-3737 Fax: +36-1-224-3705 -Email: adam@oszk.hu WWW: http://www.oszk.hu ================================================ The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: IRSpyHeader_BugReport_1093.doc Date: 25 Apr 2007, 19:00 Size: 365568 bytes. Type: Unknown --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) application/octet-stream --- From mike@miketaylor.org.uk Thu Apr 26 12:57:22 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["803" "Thursday" "26" "April" "2007" "12:57:22" "+0100" "Mike Taylor" "mike@indexdata.com" nil "18" "Re: IRSpy Acceptance Testing" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: X-Original-To: mike Delivered-To: mike@miketaylor.org.uk Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CBDF6AC0F6; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:57:22 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17968.37794.713293.251594@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <462FA783.17971.225752EB@adam.oszk.hu> References: <20070330232512.C62C4ABC71@localhost.localdomain> <462FA783.17971.225752EB@adam.oszk.hu> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 From: Mike Taylor To: "HORVATH Adam" Cc: perhans@indexdata.dk, juha.hakala@helsinki.fi Subject: Re: IRSpy Acceptance Testing Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:57:22 +0100 HORVATH Adam writes: > I added a couple of bug reports, comments, questions to bugzilla. I > also amended a previous bug report of someone else. Thanks for these reports. > I wanted to attach a screenshot to one of the report (1093) but I > did not find an attach button, so I'm attaching that to this > letter. I've attached it to the bug for you. (It's the "Create a New Attachment" link -- I agree that the Bugzilla UI is pretty horrible. On the positive side, it makes IRSpy look good in comparison :-) _/|_ ___________________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor http://www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "It became necessary to destroy the village in order to save it" -- Attributed to an anonymous senior US military officer. From mike Wed Jun 27 11:29:19 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["1070" "Wednesday" "27" "June" "2007" "12:12:28" "+0200" "Per M. Hansen" "perhans@indexdata.dk" "<4682380C.6040602@indexdata.dk>" "30" "Re: [Fwd: Re: IRSpy testing in Helsinki]" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-path: Envelope-to: mike@indexdata.com Delivery-date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:13:16 +0200 Received: from bagel.indexdata.dk [213.150.43.11] by localhost.localdomain with POP3 (fetchmail-6.3.6) for (single-drop); Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:29:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from user.indexdata.dk ([213.150.43.10] helo=[10.0.1.61]) by bagel.indexdata.dk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1I3UWS-0006OX-JY; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:13:16 +0200 Message-ID: <4682380C.6040602@indexdata.dk> Organization: Index Data ApS User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46822480.3070006@indexdata.dk> <18050.13587.950805.441019@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <18050.13587.950805.441019@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 213.150.43.10 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: mike@indexdata.com, quinn@indexdata.com, adam@indexdata.dk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: perhans@indexdata.dk X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bagel.indexdata.dk); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-UIDL: h0@"! To: Mike Taylor CC: Sebastian Hammer , Adam Dickmeiss Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: IRSpy testing in Helsinki] Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:12:28 +0200 Mike Taylor skrev: > Per M. Hansen writes: > > There seams to be a lot of open bugs on IRSpy. > > Yes, though that is largely illusory due to all the wishlisty bits. > Ok, but there are some bugs in there like this one http://bugzilla.indexdata.dk/show_bug.cgi?id=1036. > > What bugs are there that the Finns can say that is linked to the > > deliverable of IRSpy? > > Isn't that for them to say? I don't think we should draw attention to > specific bugs: just send the invoice and see whether they say "first > you need to fix bug X"? > Well that is one way of handling it, I guess, but I think that we should make a formal deliverable. Can we make some kind of package for them that we can send? /Per > _/|_ ___________________________________________________________________ > /o ) \/ Mike Taylor http://www.miketaylor.org.uk > )_v__/\ "So where is the innovation? The innovation is the talking > paper clip in Microsoft Office. Is that real innovation?" -- > Mitchell Kertzman, Chairman and CEO, Sybase. > > > From mike@miketaylor.org.uk Wed Jun 27 12:16:27 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil t nil] ["1917" "Wednesday" "27" "June" "2007" "12:16:26" "+0100" "Mike Taylor" "mike@indexdata.com" nil "52" "Re: [Fwd: Re: IRSpy testing in Helsinki]" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: X-Original-To: mike Delivered-To: mike@miketaylor.org.uk Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 269BF4D6441A; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:16:27 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <18050.18186.896331.810825@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <4682380C.6040602@indexdata.dk> References: <46822480.3070006@indexdata.dk> <18050.13587.950805.441019@localhost.localdomain> <4682380C.6040602@indexdata.dk> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 X-StripMime: Non-text section removed by stripmime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mike Taylor To: "Per M. Hansen" Cc: Sebastian Hammer , Adam Dickmeiss Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: IRSpy testing in Helsinki] Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:16:26 +0100 Per M. Hansen writes: > > > There seams to be a lot of open bugs on IRSpy. > > > > Yes, though that is largely illusory due to all the wishlisty bits. > > Ok, but there are some bugs in there like this one > http://bugzilla.indexdata.dk/show_bug.cgi?id=1036. Ah, well, that one is to do with character sets. You can't possibly expect that to be fixed! Just joking, ha ha. No, the problem with this one is that the database name, hence the ID, has a space in it: Z39.50:bissen.odont.au.dk:21/Odontologisk Bibliotek That is in fact provoking the same problem as non-ASCII characters in an ID do, which is that when you submit such an ID as recordIdOpaque in and Extended Services request, it is interpreted differently from when it's submitted as part of a record that XS extracts the ID from itself. It still seems wrong to me that Zebra does this, but it's possible to work around. In fact, I just have: I fixed this in CVS and on the live site. > > > What bugs are there that the Finns can say that is linked to > > > the deliverable of IRSpy? > > > > Isn't that for them to say? I don't think we should draw attention to > > specific bugs: just send the invoice and see whether they say "first > > you need to fix bug X"? > > Well that is one way of handling it, I guess, but I think that we > should make a formal deliverable. Can we make some kind of package > for them that we can send? Sure thing. Here it is, including the edit-record-with-funny-ID fix described above. _/|_ ___________________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor http://www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "A Linux system requires rebooting about as often as a Windoze system requires re-installing" -- David Joffe. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/octet-stream --- From mike Thu Jul 5 09:59:05 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3436" "Thursday" "5" "July" "2007" "09:10:32" "+0300" "Juha Hakala" "juha.hakala@helsinki.fi" nil "78" "IRSpy acceptance" "^X-Spam-Status:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-path: Envelope-to: mike@indexdata.com Delivery-date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:30:52 +0200 Received: from bagel.indexdata.dk [213.150.43.11] by localhost.localdomain with POP3 (fetchmail-6.3.6) for (single-drop); Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:59:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from sender-03.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.141]) by bagel.indexdata.dk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1I6Mjh-00057h-G1; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:30:52 +0200 Received: from orm6.lib.helsinki.fi (orm6.lib.helsinki.fi [128.214.91.244]) by sender-03.it.helsinki.fi (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l656AWAZ001069 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 5 Jul 2007 09:10:32 +0300 Received: from [128.214.91.248] (oktas-2.lib.helsinki.fi [128.214.91.248]) (authenticated bits=0) by orm6.lib.helsinki.fi (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l656AV9H020283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jul 2007 09:10:31 +0300 Message-ID: <468C8B58.4020800@helsinki.fi> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 128.214.205.141 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: dorman@indexdata.com, mike@indexdata.com, quinn@indexdata.com, sondberg@indexdata.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: juha.hakala@helsinki.fi X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on bagel.indexdata.dk X-Spam-Level: X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on bagel.indexdata.dk) X-UIDL: Wa%"!eMo!!!38!!+Tm!! X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.3 From: Juha Hakala To: "Per M. Hansen" , Mike Taylor , sondberg@indexdata.com, Sebastian Hammer , Ere Maijala , Kristiina Hormia , Annu Jauhiainen , Pertti Rekala , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tuula_Haapam?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E4ki?= , Kai Ekholm , Adam Dickmeiss , Eeva Murtomaa , David Dorman Subject: IRSpy acceptance Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:10:32 +0300 Hello all, The National Library of Finland accepts the IRSpy application, following the successful beta testing of the software in the library. Our billing address is Helsingin yliopisto Kansalliskirjasto / Kirjastoverkkopalvelut PL 7138 01051 LASKUT Please mention responsibility area code (in Finnish, vastuualuekoodi) 98123. I-D is most welcome to announce availability of this application to the general public. Please mention in the announcement that the development effort was a cooperative project between I-D and the national library of Finland. Since I will start vacation next Monday I will not be able to review the text unless it is sent tomorrow. IRSpy is the first implementation of the NISO draft standard Z39.92-200X. As such it makes it possible to complete the standardization process. My intention as the chair of the NISO working group developing the standard is to publish the second draft of it in August. As far as I know, development of IRSpy did not reveal any problems in the present draft, so the second one can be published unaltered. We will discuss with Ex Libris Group and WebClarity Software Inc. about incorporation of IRSpy into, respectively, MetaLib and BookWhere. The national library has no intention to host IRSpy ourselves in the short run, and we will never try to run a global site, mainly due to considerable systems expert time that would require. Moreover, the present IRSpy database which is apparently inherited from your previous ZSpy software) is out of date - many databases no longer are available in the same address where they were located a few years back - and would require a thorough manual revision. A decentralized network of national/regional IRSpy installations, each concentrating on its geographical area, is the only truly feasible model for hosting the tool (this does not rule out the possibility of harvesting the Z39.92 data into a physical union catalogue). One issue we will most likely discuss in the Autumn here in the national library is whether maintenance of a national database of Information retrieval service descriptions using Z39.92 (and IRSpy) will fit within the national bibliographic responsibilities of the national library. As far as I am concerned, it is more important to describe how for instance the national bibliography database can be used for search and retrieval (and to share this data with other libraries) than catalogue manually some obscure grey Web literature. Google can do the latter more efficiently than we, but Google can not and will not be able to deal efficiently with (a large number of) databases. Due to Z39.92 and IRSpy the national libraries will have an option to discuss how to deal with databases within the national bibliographic context. Without a standard to steer creation and exchange of IR service descriptions and an efficient tool for creating those descriptions trying to extend national bibliographic activities to "deep Web" would not have been possible. With the web archives were are already dealing with the uppermost level of the Web, and with Z39.92 and IRSpy we have a chance to gain access to the rest of it. Best regards, Juha Hakala -- Juha Hakala Director, Information Technology The National Library of Finland P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678 From mike@miketaylor.org.uk Thu Jul 5 10:04:22 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4504" "Thursday" "5" "July" "2007" "10:04:22" "+0100" "Mike Taylor" "mike@indexdata.com" nil "103" "[Juha Hakala: IRSpy acceptance]" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: X-Original-To: mike Delivered-To: mike@miketaylor.org.uk Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 850864D6420C; Thu, 5 Jul 2007 10:04:22 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18060.46102.456630.110731@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 From: Mike Taylor To: perhans@indexdata.dk Subject: [Juha Hakala: IRSpy acceptance] Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 10:04:22 +0100 Excellent news! You get that invoice out; I will split my time between DBC's Keystone Resolver Admin UI work and the Australian Z39.50-to-SRU gateway (unless you'd prefer to me concentrate on one of them to the exclusion of the other?) ------- start of forwarded message ------- From: Juha Hakala To: "Per M. Hansen" , Mike Taylor , sondberg@indexdata.com, Sebastian Hammer , Ere Maijala , Kristiina Hormia , Annu Jauhiainen , Pertti Rekala , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tuula_Haapam?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E4ki?= , Kai Ekholm , Adam Dickmeiss , Eeva Murtomaa , David Dorman Subject: IRSpy acceptance Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:10:32 +0300 Hello all, The National Library of Finland accepts the IRSpy application, following the successful beta testing of the software in the library. Our billing address is Helsingin yliopisto Kansalliskirjasto / Kirjastoverkkopalvelut PL 7138 01051 LASKUT Please mention responsibility area code (in Finnish, vastuualuekoodi) 98123. I-D is most welcome to announce availability of this application to the general public. Please mention in the announcement that the development effort was a cooperative project between I-D and the national library of Finland. Since I will start vacation next Monday I will not be able to review the text unless it is sent tomorrow. IRSpy is the first implementation of the NISO draft standard Z39.92-200X. As such it makes it possible to complete the standardization process. My intention as the chair of the NISO working group developing the standard is to publish the second draft of it in August. As far as I know, development of IRSpy did not reveal any problems in the present draft, so the second one can be published unaltered. We will discuss with Ex Libris Group and WebClarity Software Inc. about incorporation of IRSpy into, respectively, MetaLib and BookWhere. The national library has no intention to host IRSpy ourselves in the short run, and we will never try to run a global site, mainly due to considerable systems expert time that would require. Moreover, the present IRSpy database which is apparently inherited from your previous ZSpy software) is out of date - many databases no longer are available in the same address where they were located a few years back - and would require a thorough manual revision. A decentralized network of national/regional IRSpy installations, each concentrating on its geographical area, is the only truly feasible model for hosting the tool (this does not rule out the possibility of harvesting the Z39.92 data into a physical union catalogue). One issue we will most likely discuss in the Autumn here in the national library is whether maintenance of a national database of Information retrieval service descriptions using Z39.92 (and IRSpy) will fit within the national bibliographic responsibilities of the national library. As far as I am concerned, it is more important to describe how for instance the national bibliography database can be used for search and retrieval (and to share this data with other libraries) than catalogue manually some obscure grey Web literature. Google can do the latter more efficiently than we, but Google can not and will not be able to deal efficiently with (a large number of) databases. Due to Z39.92 and IRSpy the national libraries will have an option to discuss how to deal with databases within the national bibliographic context. Without a standard to steer creation and exchange of IR service descriptions and an efficient tool for creating those descriptions trying to extend national bibliographic activities to "deep Web" would not have been possible. With the web archives were are already dealing with the uppermost level of the Web, and with Z39.92 and IRSpy we have a chance to gain access to the rest of it. Best regards, Juha Hakala -- Juha Hakala Director, Information Technology The National Library of Finland P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678 ------- end of forwarded message ------- From mike@miketaylor.org.uk Thu Jul 5 12:19:58 2007 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4172" "Thursday" "5" "July" "2007" "12:19:58" "+0100" "Mike Taylor" "mike@indexdata.com" nil "94" "IRSpy acceptance" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: X-Original-To: mike Delivered-To: mike@miketaylor.org.uk Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DF6BD4D6420C; Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:19:58 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18060.54238.847561.812058@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <468C8B58.4020800@helsinki.fi> References: <468C8B58.4020800@helsinki.fi> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 From: Mike Taylor To: Juha Hakala Cc: "Per M. Hansen" , sondberg@indexdata.com, Sebastian Hammer , Ere Maijala , Kristiina Hormia , Annu Jauhiainen , Pertti Rekala , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tuula_Haapam?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E4ki?= , Kai Ekholm , Adam Dickmeiss , Eeva Murtomaa , David Dorman Subject: IRSpy acceptance Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:19:58 +0100 Juha Hakala writes: > Hello all, > > The National Library of Finland accepts the IRSpy application, > following the successful beta testing of the software in the > library. Thanks, Juha, that's great news. > Our billing address is > > Helsingin yliopisto > Kansalliskirjasto / Kirjastoverkkopalvelut > PL 7138 > 01051 LASKUT > > Please mention responsibility area code (in Finnish, > vastuualuekoodi) 98123. Per will deal with this. > I-D is most welcome to announce availability of this application to > the general public. Please mention in the announcement that the > development effort was a cooperative project between I-D and the > national library of Finland. Since I will start vacation next > Monday I will not be able to review the text unless it is sent > tomorrow. Thanks, we'll make an announcement. > IRSpy is the first implementation of the NISO draft standard > Z39.92-200X. As such it makes it possible to complete the > standardization process. My intention as the chair of the NISO > working group developing the standard is to publish the second > draft of it in August. As far as I know, development of IRSpy did > not reveal any problems in the present draft, so the second one can > be published unaltered. Ah, that's very good news. The SRU people, at the their recent meeting, didn't know the status of Z39.92, and were worried that it might be dead. See the notes at: http://www.loc.gov:8081/standards/sru/june2007meeting-report.html#zeerex It might be good to get an announcement out to counter that perception. > We will discuss with Ex Libris Group and WebClarity Software > Inc. about incorporation of IRSpy into, respectively, MetaLib and > BookWhere. Exciting! > The national library has no intention to host IRSpy ourselves in > the short run, and we will never try to run a global site, mainly > due to considerable systems expert time that would require. > Moreover, the present IRSpy database which is apparently inherited > from your previous ZSpy software) is out of date - many databases > no longer are available in the same address where they were located > a few years back - and would require a thorough manual revision. > > A decentralized network of national/regional IRSpy installations, > each concentrating on its geographical area, is the only truly > feasible model for hosting the tool (this does not rule out the > possibility of harvesting the Z39.92 data into a physical union > catalogue). Well, whatever you can get funding for :-) > One issue we will most likely discuss in the Autumn here in the > national library is whether maintenance of a national database of > Information retrieval service descriptions using Z39.92 (and IRSpy) > will fit within the national bibliographic responsibilities of the > national library. As far as I am concerned, it is more important to > describe how for instance the national bibliography database can be > used for search and retrieval (and to share this data with other > libraries) than catalogue manually some obscure grey Web > literature. Google can do the latter more efficiently than we, but > Google can not and will not be able to deal efficiently with (a > large number of) databases. Due to Z39.92 and IRSpy the national > libraries will have an option to discuss how to deal with databases > within the national bibliographic context. Without a standard to > steer creation and exchange of IR service descriptions and an > efficient tool for creating those descriptions trying to extend > national bibliographic activities to "deep Web" would not have been > possible. With the web archives were are already dealing with the > uppermost level of the Web, and with Z39.92 and IRSpy we have a > chance to gain access to the rest of it. Agreed. _/|_ ___________________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor http://www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "I can't figure out the relationship between Nancy, the stuffed owl in the garage, and the plates" -- Matt Wedel, in a context that made some kind of sense at the time.